00;00;00;00 - 00;00;25;10 Unknown Hello and welcome to Transformative Taskmaster, a podcast by fans, for fans and about fans. This episode, TK will be speaking with Lauren Balzer, author of the article Real Person Fanfiction and the construction of the Unethical Fan. Together, they'll be discussing fourth wall breaks and the inherent trickiness this presents when there isn't one to begin with. 00;00;25;10 - 00;01;04;19 Unknown Hi, Lauren, welcome to the Transformative Taskmaster podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah. So we, our little fan community, our little section of our community, found your work, and we were like, oh, now they're already talking about us. So you have you have written a, an essay, an article, called Real Person, a fan of fiction and the construction of the unethical fan UN is in, parentheses there. 00;01;04;21 - 00;01;34;16 Unknown So, yes. Tell us about, tell us about your essay. Like what? What made you want to write it? So, I am also a Taskmaster fan. Like many people, I sort of got into it during the pandemic. And I initially had, like a couple of tasks on YouTube that got recommended to me. And then I ended up watching a couple of episodes and about three episodes into watching the show, I was like, there's definitely fanfiction about this. 00;01;34;18 - 00;01;54;25 Unknown And so I went to the archive so that there's a lot of fanfiction. I think at that point there were like 7 or 800. And I was very interested both as like a fan and sort of academically and like how people were talking about Greg and Alex because it's they're not themselves, but they're not not themselves either. 00;01;54;26 - 00;02;18;27 Unknown Yeah. So I sort of got into it through that space and in looking at the sort of weird queer genre that's happening there. Got really interested in how fans were sort of positioning themselves to Alex and how that sort of weird, quasi symbiotic relationship came to exist. And yeah, that's sort of the impetus for for how we got there. 00;02;19;03 - 00;02;42;13 Unknown Okay, nice. So you found out about the fanfic long before he actually brought it up in the show? Oh, so long before. To the point that when it was brought up, it was like a nuclear bomb being dropped, or I was like, oh, they're they're doing this. Yeah, I, I was the opposite in that I had been part of fandom spaces. 00;02;42;13 - 00;03;28;23 Unknown I knew about fanfic, I knew about RPF, but had never been in an RPA fandom. And so when Alex brought it up in series 15, I was like, I like, pause the video. I was like, what? So that's how I got started. Yeah, I yeah, I think it's it's definitely interesting because Greg and Alex don't take the route that most celebrities do of like just like accepting that fanfic exists but like not really delving into it, not really, you know, shouting it out on, you know, it's all us, all of us. 00;03;28;27 - 00;03;50;20 Unknown You, more than once. So, yeah, I think it's it's definitely an interesting dynamic that they have with the fans and with themselves. Oh for sure. Yeah. It's I, I remember because I was not super familiar with the panel genre. I was like, is this something that all of them do? And no, it is not. So yeah. 00;03;50;23 - 00;04;16;05 Unknown Yeah, I, I think I yeah. Taskmaster I think was also one of those like I don't think I had ever really watched panel shows before. Taskmaster. I mean yeah I still don't really I mean, I know more about them at this point, but so yeah. So you, so you had known about it for a while and, and then they started bringing it up series 15. 00;04;16;07 - 00;04;52;29 Unknown And since then have just continued, to bring it up. So at what point during this process or of, like, watching Taskmaster, were you sat down and thinking like, okay, I need to write about this in like an actual essay? It is somewhat damning, I think, if I say before they even brought it up themselves, way before series 15, I don't remember at what point I was like, I need to write about this, but it sort of piqued my interest, I think, from the get go. 00;04;53;01 - 00;05;20;28 Unknown But I would say probably at least like a couple, 6 or 7 months before they even brought it up themselves. I was sort of thinking about how fans were positioning, like the realness of Greg and Alex, if that makes sense. So thinking about how we're thinking about what's the real person and what's not, and then when they themselves brought it up, that's when it sort of shifted into a slightly different, more like that relationship between Alex and also Greg, but mostly Alex and fans. 00;05;21;00 - 00;05;39;04 Unknown But yeah, I, I've unfortunately been plagued by this for many, many years. Yeah. That's that's incredible that you I mean, I feel like a lot of people that, that I've talked to have been like, oh, yeah, I like instantly knew that there was going to be fanfic. And I'm just sitting here like, oh, yeah, I had no idea. 00;05;39;07 - 00;06;07;02 Unknown So were you have you been in other fandom spaces before? Sort of tangentially, all being fandoms that are about real people, but not usually in the sort of. Yeah, I think Taskmaster was the first time where I was like, oh, there's something going on here that I'm actually, like, interested in as a fan. Which is, I think also why it ended up becoming this whole intellectual journey also. 00;06;07;04 - 00;06;40;06 Unknown But no, I it's of something that exists tangentially to me that I'm like, how about it? That's that's your that's your cup of tea, and I'm happy for you. But this was, I think, the probably the first time I was like, oh, this is actually interesting to me as a fan also. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I think when I, you know, I had I have been in fandom spaces pretty much my whole life and I wasn't in a fandom space until after Alex brought up that there was fanfic. 00;06;40;06 - 00;07;04;23 Unknown And so then I went on A3 and I it's just Dover. It and and started reading all of it and everything and it's really well-written, which is. Yeah, that, you know, my, my previous fandom struggled with a little bit, which is like personally just, you know, I don't like reading things where like a grammatical error will take me out of the story. 00;07;04;25 - 00;07;25;14 Unknown Yeah. I am very much of that person who will point out errors in menus when we go out to eat together. I'll be like, I don't need this apostrophe here. So I'm very, like, aware of, you know, like spelling and grammar and all that kind of stuff. So. But reading, Taskmaster, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like really, really good. 00;07;25;14 - 00;07;46;28 Unknown Like, this is yeah, professional grade, you know, like writing. This is this is awesome. So I got really, really into it. Just reading it, like reading everything that I could. And then eventually you kind of pick up snippets of, like, in the notes sections or in the summary sections or whatever that there's like this, this little fan community. 00;07;46;28 - 00;08;14;02 Unknown And it's not like there's just one, but, you know, there's like a bunch of different little fan communities. And so I, I, I tried to infiltrate them and I was successful, and now I'm here, but, and so, yeah. And I hadn't again, I hadn't been part of an RPF fandom, in the past. And again, I was aware of it, but my thinking was always kind of like, you know, like, it's not for me. 00;08;14;05 - 00;08;28;10 Unknown I, you know, if people have fun doing it, go for it, I guess. But like, it's feels kind of weird to, like, write about real humans. But then since Alex brought it up, I was like, 00;08;28;10 - 00;08;31;14 Unknown oh, so. Oh, okay. So 00;08;31;14 - 00;08;44;09 Unknown like, he so, like, say like this. Like, they think this is interesting and funny. And then, like, the more they bring it up, the more it's, it's like, kind of clear that they're a little bit egging it on, you know. 00;08;44;09 - 00;09;12;06 Unknown Yeah. Because let's just like they're like, oh, look like, look at all these titles. And so now there's like a whole section of H3 that's just titled what we call Alex bait. So it's like, this would be a really good title for Alex to, you know, read out on the show or whatever. But yeah. And so, so I, I joined the little our little community and I got to, you know, meet all of these writers and fan artists and all this kind of stuff. 00;09;12;08 - 00;10;02;07 Unknown And after I joined the community, I was like, I think I could write like because I had been writing a lot in my, in my previous fandom, but I was like, I feel like this feels like I can write it and not feel weird about it. Like where? Yeah, you know, so, which is, I think something that you definitely mainline in your essay about like the, the way that Greg and Alex interact with, like fanfic and in particular just kind of paves the way for writers to have a relationship with RPF via the Taskmaster universe that feels more or. 00;10;02;09 - 00;10;29;09 Unknown I don't want to say normal, because nothing about Taskmaster is normal. Norman is relative. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, so. So talk to me a little bit about, like, your thoughts on that in your essay specifically? Yeah. So I, I use Taskmaster. As for this sort of case study, but I do think that it is something that is happening in other fandoms. 00;10;29;12 - 00;10;54;21 Unknown Definitely less so than in Taskmaster, but within Taskmaster itself, there's sort of two things in that article that I, focus on. The first thing that I sort of talk about is how fans sort of are able to perform, being like an ethical art fan through like creating Alex's identity with him. So that's the sort of thing where, you know, you have stuff where it's like, oh, Alex is engaging with this. 00;10;54;23 - 00;11;11;08 Unknown I'm using certain types like indicate that he's also sort of a fan of this, like you were saying, like he's clearly egging it on and enjoying it and some capacity, whether it started out that way or not. I don't pretend to know. But at this point, like it's when you bring it on sapphires, there's clearly something happening 00;11;11;08 - 00;11;14;24 Unknown there when you print it out on a piece of paper. 00;11;14;26 - 00;11;17;09 Unknown Yeah, on the ground. 00;11;17;09 - 00;11;37;10 Unknown Like clearly either you or some marketing intern is is happy about it. Yeah. But yeah. So that sort of thing is, is something that again, is, is also happening in other spaces just a substantially less degrees I think. And it's, it's this sort of like playful thing. It's the thing that's like, oh, Alex is also kind of a fan with us. 00;11;37;10 - 00;12;01;12 Unknown Like, how much less moral are we than having that sort of thing? And then the other, which is I think what you're getting at also is how fans are performing that ethically through like some kind of like, moral exceptionalism. So that's the sort of thing that, I see often with a lot of fans who are Taskmaster fans, but not Taskmaster fans who will say things like, oh, like, yeah, maybe. 00;12;01;12 - 00;12;28;05 Unknown I think this is weird, but clearly Alex is trying to egg this on or the kind of thing where it's like, I normally am not an RPA fan, but like Taskmaster broke me, or Taskmaster is like really adding fuel to a fire in a way that other things normally don't, and sort of positing their really weird treatment of like, yeah, then and persona in terms of Greg and Alex and all of that, just insane stuff. 00;12;28;07 - 00;12;55;16 Unknown And sort of pausing in that way. So those are sort of the two main things that I'm thinking about in that article as to how fans are paving that way to sort of interact with RPF in a way that feels less like icky or less like bad or something like that. But there's definitely other things I've seen, but those are sort of the two main ones that are, I think, most common even outside of the, sort of purely RPF spheres also. 00;12;55;19 - 00;13;00;07 Unknown Yeah. And I definitely think there's an element of play to it 00;13;00;07 - 00;13;16;01 Unknown between 100 fans and Greg and Alex, because it's one of those things where like if you if you throw a ball to someone and then they just drop it and walk away, you're not going to really want to like, try to throw the ball to them again because you know that nothing's going to happen. 00;13;16;01 - 00;13;32;02 Unknown But if they pick the ball up and throw it back to you, like now we're interacting in a way that is fun for both of us. You know, like you might be getting something different out of what I'm getting, you know, from it. But it's still this back and forth of like, I see you, I see what you're doing. 00;13;32;06 - 00;14;14;18 Unknown Like, let's play together. And, I think that's definitely part of one why there's so many fanfics and to, like, why we kind of keep doing it because, like, they're they're actively bringing it up, in, in on the show itself, in interviews, in podcasts, in, you know, the the New York City Q&A. And on Seth Meyers, like I went to the, the Q&A in New York and literally like it was one of the very first things that Greg brought up on his own. 00;14;14;20 - 00;14;31;25 Unknown I should at first like, he like the I don't remember what the question was. It might have been, can you pick up Alex, please? And he like, physically picked him up and they sat back down. He's like, man, you guys are so weird. And he's like, you know, there's like a lot of fanfic of like and like, no, no segue into fanfic at all. 00;14;31;27 - 00;14;57;25 Unknown And we're just like, oh my gosh, like, what is happening? So yeah, I think exciting. Yeah. I think keeping it in a realm of play is a really, like, astute way of putting it. I think the yeah, I think the metaphor of the ball is very useful because it, it would not be, as I think, potent were it not for the fact that they do keep bringing it up. 00;14;57;25 - 00;15;31;27 Unknown And despite the fact that they keep occasionally making these sorts of comments like, oh, it's weird, but clearly there's some sort of playful interaction happening here, whether they want it to be like that or not. But yeah, and I definitely think and we'll talk about this a little bit later. But I think there's been a lot of growth between their first interaction, especially with Greg, their first interactions with it between now, which is both in the sort of way that like originally, Greg is like, I don't know where these people are getting these ideas from 00;15;31;27 - 00;15;36;28 Unknown to now, you know, where it just like, like spread his legs open in front of Alex 00;15;36;28 - 00;15;37;13 Unknown on the 00;15;37;13 - 00;16;10;18 Unknown stage in New York City and be like, oh, you're not used to this view with trousers on, are you? And it's like, you can't say stuff like that. And then turn around and be like, oh, I don't know where these people are getting these ideas from. So like, they're clearly at a point where, like, they know about it well enough that they're just like really digging into it and, you know, like our, our little, corner of the internet for the most part, really, really love it because it is really fun, to see, you know, what they pick up and look at and turn around and, you know, like a ball on the 00;16;10;18 - 00;16;34;16 Unknown ground, and then they throw it back to us and they're like, oh, you picked this ball. Okay. That's interesting. Because, you know, they're like a thousand other balls you could have picked. But I guess there's so many other balls yet. We picked this one. Yeah, exactly. So when you first found out about, RPF and Taskmaster, did you you said you went to A3 and you were like, wow, there's like 800 vets. 00;16;34;19 - 00;17;02;02 Unknown Did you then just, like, start ravenously reading and devouring all these books like I did? Because that was like the first thing that I just started, like reading through like, as many as I could. Or were you just kind of like, taking a backseat and being like, let's see where this goes. So I have a very useful but toxic trait, which is that when I find out about any media event, I'm immediately going to the archive and looking and seeing what people have written. 00;17;02;04 - 00;17;23;03 Unknown So like Luigi Mangione currently is a project I'm working on in the fanfic that's been written about him. So I immediately was like, I need to see what people are saying about this. So I probably within like the probably 2 or 3 weeks after that read like some hundred odd, just because I was very interested in what people were doing. 00;17;23;03 - 00;17;40;08 Unknown And I had it under the guise of it's academic, which it is. But I was also like, this is fascinating. Yeah. So yeah, I definitely was like, I need to see what these people say. These people, not in a negative sense, but I need to see what these these people are writing. Just because I was like, this is baffling. 00;17;40;08 - 00;17;56;21 Unknown And I'm so curious how they're being represented and what people are finding fun to toy with and. Right. Yeah. So when you were, in the beginning stages of your essay and you were like, okay, I want to write this essay, this is what it's going to be about. What kind of research did you do for that? 00;17;56;21 - 00;18;25;26 Unknown Like obviously you'll have to pull from fiction interviews and, you know, like, like the show itself, pretty much. But, like, what was your what were you, like your bullet points of like, a to do list of, like, I need to do this, this, this and this. So I would say I, in the very early stages, thought that I was going to talk a lot more about the, like, weird sort of Taskmaster extended universe. 00;18;25;28 - 00;18;48;20 Unknown So I engaged a lot with things like the horn section podcast, the TV show, like the various books and things like that that have been put out, which is great background. They're all insane in conversation with each other, and I would recommend just engaging with that. So it started sort of, sort of started out in that realm. 00;18;48;22 - 00;19;13;18 Unknown And then I spent a lot of time sort of going through the archive itself. Excuse me, going through the archive itself, and looking at the sort of discourse around the facts in particular. Because a lot of research and RPC tends to look at the text itself and not necessarily the sort of like notes or the tags or the comments and stuff like that. 00;19;13;18 - 00;19;32;18 Unknown And I'm generally more interested in that, regardless of the fandom. That's just where my actual journey takes me. So I spent a lot of time with that, and from there, sort of moved to other platforms, especially Tumblr. I looked a little bit at places like Twitter just to get some of, like, Greg and Alex content. 00;19;32;18 - 00;19;47;05 Unknown But yeah, so I, I was less on the Reddit because like you're saying, the, is more discourse about the fact that they were bringing RPF on or people being like, well, people are writing RPF about Taskmaster or like, yeah, that makes sense. 00;19;47;07 - 00;20;20;27 Unknown So I was sort of trying to do a social media sweep for like a better phrase, but ended up focusing mostly on Tumblr, because that's where a lot of folks who are also writing are. Yeah, for talking about it. And then obviously on the archive itself, and then in terms of like theoretical things that I'm pulling from a lot of queer theories, sort of background, there a lot of stuff obviously with like performance and persona, and just sort of the, the way that all of that kind of interacts in a very odd way. 00;20;20;29 - 00;20;32;28 Unknown Yeah. Now there is a post on Tumblr that I think it's called, I don't know, like what you call posts on Tumblr, but it's the title of it is more or less 00;20;32;28 - 00;20;35;27 Unknown test, test master fandom. You need to be studied. 00;20;35;27 - 00;20;52;10 Unknown So it was that anything that you that you came across in your research at all? So it was still it was funny, was that at the time that I saw that I had already begun, like working on the project, and I texted one of my friends and I was like, 00;20;52;10 - 00;20;54;17 Unknown oh God, I hope they mean this in earnest, 00;20;54;17 - 00;20;59;08 Unknown because otherwise this is going to be potentially very shocking. 00;20;59;12 - 00;21;21;14 Unknown Yeah. But no, unfortunately, I still wish it was the impetus, but it was a very funny, weird milestone in the journey. Right? Yeah. I mean, one of, one of the people in my little, like we call a group chat, is the person that wrote it. And so they were like, can you ask Laura? 00;21;21;16 - 00;21;54;04 Unknown Like, she actually came across. I did, and I wish that that was the impetus, but it did make me laugh. It brought me lots of joy. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, we I mean, as a as a fandom, I mean, there are some weird fandoms out there, you know, for sure. But I feel like the Taskmaster fandom and it's funny because at the, Q&A in New York City, Alex, I forget like what this was in, in relation to. 00;21;54;04 - 00;22;18;04 Unknown But Alex was saying something about Taskmaster fans and he's like, he's like, so he referenced like the fan, the fan base. And he said, you are. And then he left a really big pause and I was like, Alex, please. And I thought he was going to say something like a lot, you know, because I was like, yeah, this. 00;22;18;07 - 00;22;46;12 Unknown But I think what he ended up saying was unique, which like, is true. You know, that's a very. Yeah. Yeah. And because and it might have been, I mean, my, my brain is like a sieve and I can never actually remember anything correctly, but I think it might have been in relation to the fact that he and Greg were gifted in New York, a pair of stained glass portraits of themselves. 00;22;47;26 - 00;22;48;20 Unknown Oh, 00;22;48;20 - 00;23;16;01 Unknown which they brought out to show us. And they are gorgeous. And and, they are currently now hanging up in the Taskmaster house, so we might see it for, series 20 maybe. I'm not really sure how. Probably 20. But, like. Yeah. And then like. And then another person had done a stained glass duck and had given it to Alex, and they were like. 00;23;16;03 - 00;24;02;03 Unknown And Greg was like, I want to be clear, these were separate people that gave us these things. Like multiple people gave us the stained glass stuff. That's wonderful. Yeah, but it's wild because, like, you know, like, I don't know, I feel like there is a really wide variety of types of fans in Taskmaster in particular, just because you have so many different people on Taskmaster as contestants and everybody is going to, you know, have their own favorites and all this kind of stuff, and so, like, I, I just did a recording with another guest that we're going to have on the podcast that, Taskmaster is really inclusive of, you know, people 00;24;02;03 - 00;24;31;14 Unknown with really any sort of diversity, you know, whether it's like queer or neurodivergent or ability, like physical ability, you know, stuff like that. So, I think there are definitely a lot of there's a lot of variety in, in the Taskmaster fandom that I think still continues to surprise Greg and Malice wherever they go. I think that's yeah, I think it very much still is continuing to surprise, which I'm like, I don't know why it is. 00;24;31;14 - 00;24;56;02 Unknown We're going on series 19, but yeah, yeah, they really should know by now. But so like, I could listen to a lot of things. Yeah, that's that's true. So while you were doing your research, was it mostly, like, pretty, pretty average. Like, was there anything that you ran into that you were like, oh, that's unusual, or that's something that I didn't expect? 00;24;56;02 - 00;25;25;28 Unknown Or was it more like, this is all pretty much what I kind of thought was going to happen. I think. I think the entire sort of thing, I feel somewhat unusual, which is kind of a cop out answer. But I think, like I said earlier, alluded to a lot of previous work on RPF just doesn't engage with the sort of like moral complexity that fans are engaging with. 00;25;26;00 - 00;26;10;26 Unknown And I think that doing that sort of like wide exploration of how people are engaging with the idea of like reality or morality or any of these other sorts of topics that are like very contested in all fandom spaces, but especially so in RPGs. I think for me was it was expected in the sense that I knew that it was happening, but it was kind of intriguing to see, I guess just the layers of complexity of that sort of make sense, like the ways that all of these different conversations are happening and they're creating this sort of very interesting, communal kind of common sense, but not really consensus. 00;26;10;28 - 00;26;35;11 Unknown I think the thing that probably stood out to me most, when I was looking at stuff was just the very, excuse me, the very different reactions, I guess, to being brought up by Alex or the fear of being brought up by Alex. Sometimes I talk mostly about people who are engaging playfully, but there is a very real fear. 00;26;35;11 - 00;26;46;19 Unknown I think for some fans of being brought up that it's still pretty playful, but it is a sort of like there's one tag in particular that I'm thinking of where it was like, the typical like 00;26;46;19 - 00;26;48;09 Unknown Alex Horne, please don't read this. 00;26;48;09 - 00;26;55;02 Unknown Yeah. And then after that was, I believe like channel four, you can fuck off too, or something like that. 00;26;55;04 - 00;27;15;00 Unknown And I think especially in the context of some of the stuff that channel four is trying to greenlight and some other stuff there, I think there's like a sort of fear there that is interesting that I wasn't necessarily expecting to find, given taskmasters overall disposition. Yeah. But that sort of contention, I think is something that is, is interesting. 00;27;15;02 - 00;27;52;19 Unknown Yeah. I mean, in, in our little group chat, we definitely have people that hate when when Alex brings up stuff, but I feel like probably 80% of us love it. And so the 20% that don't, for the most part, are usually like, happy for you guys. Glad it didn't happen to me. Yeah, yeah. Which is nice. But yeah, it's it's definitely an interesting I mean, the tags are so funny because you and you include a bunch of the, the tags that you found in your essay. 00;27;52;22 - 00;28;11;18 Unknown But, you know, just just like, I like, like there is a tag now that's like Alex Warren, you can read this, you know, and like, I adore that tag. Makes me laugh so hard. Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, doesn't matter at all, because they're clearly not looking at the tags. Or at least not. They're not looking at anything but the titles. 00;28;11;18 - 00;28;37;09 Unknown Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. So it's, it's really funny and I think like, I personally I'm pretty open about my work and I put out like a ton. But there are like a couple that I have tagged with that Alex Warren. Do not read those because I'm just like, you can read whatever you want. Like, I don't really care, but like this one is a little bit much like it's one of us. 00;28;37;11 - 00;28;46;06 Unknown And it's funny because I, I, I created an album, I'm a musician, and, the, the album is called 00;28;46;06 - 00;28;48;06 Unknown Alex Warren. Please do not listen. 00;28;48;06 - 00;29;02;15 Unknown Oh. That's wonderful. Yeah, because it's specifically about fanfic. Like of, like. Yeah, fanfic. And I was like, this would be so funny if the, if this is what I called my album. 00;29;02;18 - 00;29;27;19 Unknown But it's also a little terrifying because I put that out. And then I did, a Taskmaster fan album, and then I did a horn section covers album. And for sure he knows about the covers album, and for sure he knows about the Taskmaster album, because he purchased my song called Little Alex Horn, which he did not need to do because it is available for free. 00;29;27;21 - 00;29;35;29 Unknown And I was like, okay, wait, wait, I love that he purchased it. Yeah, he purchased it. And then he said, and then he sent me an email and the email said, 00;29;35;29 - 00;29;37;20 Unknown I'll have this at my funeral. Thanks. 00;29;37;20 - 00;29;50;21 Unknown But I was just like, I love that. It was great. Well, that was when I when I put out the the week that this song came out, it was the same week that they went on Seth Meyers. 00;29;50;24 - 00;30;15;06 Unknown I was like, I really, I really it's very app. But I was like, I really hope they don't stumble on to this, at least for like a month. I need at least a month where they don't discover there's like academic literature about them. I feel like like maybe they'll never I hope that they would, but I just it's the idea of it's very funny to me and I, I would love to know how that would go over. 00;30;15;06 - 00;30;37;09 Unknown But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's because I feel like sometimes there's a fine line between like, yeah, I don't really care if you find all my stuff and like, but actually like it, like if you do bring it up, like, I don't know how I'm going to feel about. So like, for example, I yeah, I'm going to be going on the horn section podcast. 00;30;37;12 - 00;30;57;14 Unknown I think maybe next month. They haven't given me a date yet, but like to do that, they need to research me, which I'm fine with. But if they come across my album that literally is titled Alex Horn Do Not Listen, and they bring that up to me in the horn Section podcast. I'm going to be like, bro, you had one job. 00;30;57;15 - 00;31;02;16 Unknown I don't know what to tell you. Like this one. You. 00;31;02;18 - 00;31;26;14 Unknown Because it kind of goes back to, something that you mentioned briefly in your essay, which is like the number one rule of RPF is don't share your RPF with the people. Yes. You know, which, as far as I know, no one has done that. They are both going out and, like, actively looking for this stuff. 00;31;26;16 - 00;31;48;01 Unknown Yes. So that's wild. Yeah. That to me is the part that I continue to be, I think just most I don't know if shocked is the right word, but especially compared to like other high pro intrigues. Yeah. Other high profile fandoms where like you have people at like Comic-Con or like other sorts of events being like, look at this RPF, or things like that, which is like, that's your prerogative. 00;31;48;01 - 00;32;07;02 Unknown I don't know, I would do that, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not here to cast moral judgment. But yeah, the fact that they just keep bringing it up of their own volition is fascinating to me. It really is. I mean, it's and they just keep doing it, and we're just like you don't you literally don't need to say anything about it. 00;32;07;06 - 00;32;19;19 Unknown And yet you just keep doing it. It's it's it's wild. I mean, I personally love that they do it. I'm obsessed with the fact that they just keep bringing it up and it's so, so funny. 00;32;23;19 - 00;32;36;23 Unknown Anyway, so we're gonna we're gonna transition to, the games section of the podcast now. So. Yeah. So we are going to play, what, what I love to call fact or fanfic. 00;32;36;25 - 00;32;38;23 Unknown So, as you know, oh, gorgeous 00;32;38;23 - 00;32;42;00 Unknown Greg and Alex both just say shit, 00;32;42;00 - 00;32;50;04 Unknown like, just unhinged. Like, where is this coming from? Out of the blue. Just ridiculous stuff. 00;32;50;04 - 00;33;07;28 Unknown So I'm going to give you three. I'm going to read you three. Greg intros to Alex. So top of the show. Okay. You know, Greg is doing his introduction. And you're going to tell me whether you think it was from a fic or whether it is something that Greg has actually said. 00;33;08;01 - 00;33;28;14 Unknown Gorgeous. Okay, so number one, and next to me, a man who looks like a child's clumsy craft paper cut out of a person got dropped in the dustpan while the glue was still wet. It's little Alex Horne. I want to say that one's fanfic. That one is fanfic. Yes. Okay. 00;33;28;25 - 00;33;33;08 Unknown Yes, that one is specifically. 00;33;33;08 - 00;33;38;07 Unknown Oh, I'm not going to be able to pronounce this. 00;33;38;09 - 00;33;47;24 Unknown But this is so unfair. I hate this word. A recipe crustacean reciprocity. It's not reciprocity. It's reciprocity in. 00;33;47;24 - 00;34;06;22 Unknown But I hate that word. Anyway, it's by elixir. If I want to honor your three, courageous man. I hate that word so much. All right, so you've gotten the first one right. Congratulations. Yes. I'm number to. And next to me, a man who cries every time he watches Free Willy. 00;34;06;22 - 00;34;36;21 Unknown And who frees his willy every time he cries. It's little out. Looks like he said. I feel like I already you're, like, nodding right before I submit. You're like, yep. That that's definitely that is unfortunately something he said. Yeah, sure is. That one was from series 13, episode eight. Okay. Last one. And next to me, a man who once hospitalized himself doing high kicks to Toxic by Britney Spears. 00;34;36;28 - 00;35;11;20 Unknown It's a little Alex Horan. Oh, I actually don't know. Okay, hold on. I'm going to say it's something he said, but I won't be surprised if it's not. It was indeed something he said. Series 16, episode eight. Congratulations. You got all three right? Yes. Let's see what damage I think. But yes. Goodness. Okay. So back to back to our regularly scheduled, conversation. 00;35;11;23 - 00;36;01;08 Unknown So in the Taskmaster universe and we've touched briefly on this, Greg and Alex have they're on the stage personas as the Taskmaster and his assistant. Now, Greg and Alex are also both just dudes like Greg Davis and Alex Horne. Just just regular guys. But there is this weird middle ground where it's Greg and Alex, usually together, or at least interacting through some kind of medium where they're not quite the Taskmaster and his assistant, and they're not quite just themselves, but it's something in between that they've, like, built this kind of characterization of themselves and their like, rapport back and forth with each other and their chemistry. 00;36;01;10 - 00;36;03;04 Unknown What would you call that? 00;36;03;18 - 00;36;16;08 Unknown It's a great question. I think it it borrows a little bit from wrestling. I would go, I want to go so far as to say that it has that sort of like wrestling relationship to persona. To me, the and it's, 00;36;16;08 - 00;36;21;17 Unknown I think in part just because of the nature of like panel shows and pros. To me, it's just a continuing of yes. 00;36;21;17 - 00;36;24;10 Unknown And that's just really kind of lost the plot. 00;36;24;10 - 00;36;42;27 Unknown In a good way, I should say. I think it's it's good, but I think if I remember correctly, like somebody on oh God, was it, would I lie to you? I think like referred to Alex as little Alex Horne at one point and like he's referred to that in other spaces and it's like, okay, we've we've breached containment. 00;36;42;27 - 00;37;09;26 Unknown There's it's no longer on the show. So to me, it's a sort of like, yes. Ending that as sort of, left the traditional sphere in which that improv is happening. I talked briefly in the article about this, but like the fact that it's happening at, like the comedy award shows or like those sorts of things are like on Twitter and like things like that where you're not you don't need that there. 00;37;09;29 - 00;37;25;00 Unknown To me, it's that sort of like play in a different sort of direction, whether it's for fans or for them is between them and God. But I think a continuation of The Stand is what I would probably call it. Yeah. 00;37;25;00 - 00;37;36;18 Unknown I feel like that's. Yeah, that's sounds about right. Yeah. It's like because, you know, in New York that came out, obviously it's a Taskmaster event, but they didn't come out like in a costume. 00;37;36;25 - 00;38;10;05 Unknown So you know, it's it's a little bit different. But it's also like somewhere in between which is definitely interesting. So we mentioned earlier the Taskmaster isn't really like your typical panel show in a lot of ways. But what do you think about the way that the show is almost built to have this like a deeper structure than a typical panel show and like and how that is what drives the fandom almost. 00;38;10;08 - 00;38;38;24 Unknown Yeah. This is something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. And wish I could have talked more about in the article itself. But at one point they said I believe it was one of the Andes, but it might have been a different producer or someone, or it could have been Alex himself. I might be misremembering, but, we're referring to it in its early stages as being like a sitcom or like a soap where you have to, like, film it and certain ways, and you have to have that overarching narrative. 00;38;38;26 - 00;38;58;05 Unknown And that's like one of the things that I sort of pull out of like, hey, pebbles, just don't do that. That's not what I like to you doesn't do that. Mock the week didn't do that. Like, they just don't have those overarching narratives like there's bits and fans. I've talked about this too. I'm thinking of a couple posts on Tumblr that I won't quote, cause I don't want to like out people. 00;38;58;07 - 00;39;20;25 Unknown But but fans are are very aware of that also. I think for me, the narrative sort of comes from that sitcom or soap like structure in terms of like the episodes one after the other and the competition series. But it also comes, I think, from the things that are like the champions of champions or like these other things that are sort of extra textual to that main show. 00;39;20;27 - 00;39;46;14 Unknown The fact that they recently put out the like summary of their trip in New York and it ends with, like Alex, like faking an orgasm like Meg Ryan did, and when Harry met Sally, like that sort of thing. They're devises in a way that just doesn't happen. Another panel of shows, and you can only blame the format for it so much when there's that other sort of like, right narrative izing happening outside 00;39;46;14 - 00;39;46;29 Unknown of that. 00;39;46;29 - 00;40;16;27 Unknown Yeah. Yeah. The the day that we're recording, this is just a couple days after Valentine's Day. And I don't know if you saw the Instagram post that they that the official taskmaster account for of but and I think they called it a bromance and we were like whoever edited it. Yeah. Is not bromance is not even close to the word no for I mean like it's better than them saying it's a strict father and son relationship. 00;40;16;27 - 00;40;25;21 Unknown I'll take bromance over that. That's true. But yeah, I did see it. And then I exhaustively, like, turned to my friends. I was like, 00;40;25;21 - 00;40;28;11 Unknown guys, they're doing state sanctioned yaoi, 00;40;28;11 - 00;40;43;18 Unknown and someone referred to it on Tumblr. But yeah, ridiculous. Like, they didn't need to do that, but I'm happy for them that they are. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's like that meme that's like, lads, is it gay to kiss the homies good night on the mouth? 00;40;43;20 - 00;40;55;22 Unknown Except your government sponsored channel is the official channel. Yeah. I hope we hope you find the Greg to your Alex. And I'm like, 00;40;55;22 - 00;40;59;29 Unknown I don't know if you know what that means, but I'm happy that you're doing it. Yeah. 00;40;59;29 - 00;41;19;13 Unknown I'm, It's just it's wild. So. So obviously we have, we've talked a little bit about, you know, how they do, like joint stuff like the, you know, they print out a buttload fanfics on to read out loud on Seth Meyers, which is just ridiculous. 00;41;19;15 - 00;41;32;22 Unknown They like an unusual, like, up until this point, it's kind of mostly been Alex name dropping fix. So now we get the turnaround of Greg is the one doing it. Greg is the one leaning over being like, 00;41;32;22 - 00;41;39;19 Unknown I'm going to read this out loud to you, like, give me that piece of paper. And then he's like, oh, I read I read these aloud to him like every night. 00;41;39;19 - 00;41;41;15 Unknown And we're just like, sir, you do not, 00;41;41;15 - 00;41;57;24 Unknown and like, you know. And so now he's the one that's acting like he's like, I love this stuff. Like, this is some of the hardest stuff I've ever been involved in. Like, listen to this is my favorite title currently. You know, we're just like, where did this man come from? 00;41;57;24 - 00;42;22;24 Unknown Like this man who his his first reaction was genuine confusion and shock as. Yeah. You know, to hearing that there was fanfic about them and now we're, we've, we've grown so much and we've gotten to this point where not only is he taking the lead on Seth Meyers, but did you hear about his his current whip or I guess it's now a tour. 00;42;22;24 - 00;42;35;29 Unknown It's okay. Maybe you haven't heard about this. So I've heard about it through the grapevine, but not from the source itself. Right. Yeah. So so the the thing that I'm referring to is that 00;42;35;29 - 00;42;54;25 Unknown in his whip and now is, I think is in his tour because he's currently touring is that there's, there's a bit that he does where they're the, the question is asked like are Greg and Alex in love or something like that. 00;42;54;25 - 00;43;17;16 Unknown And he goes, no, but I'll be honest with you, part of me would quite like to fuck him. I have, I did not know where it was from and now that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And so like, I had some friends that went to go see his him on tour and they reported back with 00;43;17;16 - 00;43;21;20 Unknown Holy shit, guys, you'll never believe what I just said. 00;43;21;22 - 00;43;48;08 Unknown I was just like, excuse me? Like what? Because keep in mind that this is not Greg as a taskmaster or that I know this is not Greg and Alex doing stuff together. This is not the horn section TV show, which Alex pulls Greg into for no reason at all. But this is just Greg on his own, doing his own show. 00;43;48;11 - 00;44;33;08 Unknown So, like, what's what's the. I don't want to use the word speculation, but like, what's the speculation? Like, why why is he doing this? Yeah, there's so many reasons that come to, to mind, some of which are rooted in reality and others are astronomically not. I think. To me, the sort of like has not pessimistic, but like the like corporate, for lack of a better phrase, like sort of take on it would be like, okay, like they're clearly saying that there's some engagement here and they're trying to maybe repair, for lack of a better word, Greg's relationship with that, because I when I was writing the article and during the editing process, there's a 00;44;33;08 - 00;44;54;10 Unknown very different image of Greg's relation to RPF writers. And I think there is now, just by the nature of academic publishing. Because like early on, he's like referring to sex as like perverts are disgusting and like when they have that been on the horn section podcast where they, like, sing that poem like he's like, this is insane and deranged, but is it like you're saying, like very different from now? 00;44;54;10 - 00;45;24;12 Unknown So I think there's sort of like corporatist marketing perspective is like, okay, maybe they're like trying to be like, no, both of them are into it. The other thought that I have is like, maybe he's been on some sort of journey of like, you know what, maybe the kiddos are actually okay. Like maybe, maybe there's something there. And I think maybe there's that playfulness that doesn't feel as like, shocking now because I think, like you're saying, like there's that shock initially. 00;45;24;12 - 00;45;46;22 Unknown There's that visceral sort of reaction. But I think maybe similarly to how a lot of fans of Taskmaster have gone on a sort of journey with RPF where they're like, this is weird. Oh, okay, maybe it's not okay. I'm just going to like, let this happen. Maybe there's some sort of similar journey there of because of the way Alex engages with it, of being like, okay, this is a facet of the show now. 00;45;47;00 - 00;46;13;25 Unknown Might as well play into it. Or like, might as well have fun with it. Yeah. Those are, I think, maybe the two most plausible to me. I don't know what other people's speculations are. I should make it clear. I don't think he does what to talk about, right? Yeah. But I, I think there's a playfulness there that because their personas are sort of breaching the containment of that taskmaster universe, I think maybe it's more fun to play with than it was like five years ago. 00;46;13;25 - 00;46;33;14 Unknown Right? Yeah. For sure. Something that he's, he's definitely gotten used to and like leaned into for sure. Because the fact that he was saying all that stuff on Seth Meyers was like, honestly just kind of refreshing to hear from him. Yeah. As opposed to Alex and and like on the flip side of that, usually Alex is the one bringing all this up. 00;46;33;14 - 00;46;52;17 Unknown He looked so uncomfortable on Seth and I was like, baby boy, it's okay. And he was like, I'm just not comfortable talking about it on American television. And I was like, bestie, I can't blame you. They're like, we're not about to get into the current politics of the country, but Jesus Christ. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I get it. 00;46;52;20 - 00;47;20;13 Unknown But but what I love is that these days, both of them are like, they will kind of still bring up the fact that, like, it's a little weird, but, like, in a good way. And they, they both will be adamant about being like, the writing is very good. Like, it's really that's I think the thing that is fascinating to me is they're always like, yeah, let's praise the writing of the let's, let's, let's be really positive about it, which is not what you do if you like. 00;47;20;13 - 00;47;45;00 Unknown There's so many tropes that like, for instance, like the supernatural actors, I believe, or like other sorts of folks who have had written about them, like fall into is like, oh, it's juvenile. It's like teenage girls, like that sort of thing. But there is a legitimate respect there that I think is really interesting. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's I mean, it's it's just so funny because Alex in that club is like, you know, he starts saying like horrible, horrible. 00;47;45;00 - 00;48;03;00 Unknown And you know, like I think what he's trying to go for is like the stuff that Greg does to me and these folks is just like, oh my gosh, can you imagine? But he's like, but the the writing is good. Like I'm like, let me be very clear. The writing is good. Like I want looks at the camera, gives a double thumbs up. 00;48;03;02 - 00;48;27;08 Unknown Oh my gosh, it's just so funny. Yeah, I don't I mean, I who knows what actually is happening, but my theory is that someone on their team is in charge of finding this because someone is finding them. These are real facts that are out there. Yes. And it's clear that they don't have an account also because they underestimated how many picks there are. 00;48;27;10 - 00;48;52;24 Unknown Yeah, yeah, that and I don't think that any of the facts that they've mentioned at the time of mentioning them have been locked. No. Yeah. So there's definitely somebody that's in charge. And I want to know who that person is so bad. Like I, I want to have Greg and or Alex on this podcast. And that's going to be the first question that comes out of my mouth 00;48;52;24 - 00;48;55;01 Unknown who is actually doing the reading of these? 00;48;55;05 - 00;48;55;15 Unknown Who's 00;48;55;15 - 00;49;14;26 Unknown doing this? Because it's Alex. I'm going to be fascinated. It's definitely not in my opinion. I don't think it's Alex. I think I don't know. He knows how to operate the archive. Right. I think yeah, I think he's maybe skimmed it once or twice. He definitely is aware of it, like obviously. But I don't think it's him that's doing it. 00;49;14;26 - 00;49;39;00 Unknown I think he's way too busy now. If Greg told me it's me because I think it's hilarious. Like, I would probably believe that now. But who used to do it then? Because it certainly wasn't you. I really, really want to know. It's so interesting to me. It has to be somebody who's also connected with the Horn Section podcast, because that's where it first came up at all. 00;49;39;00 - 00;50;01;15 Unknown Yeah. So that's I I'll put my sort of my streams and my frogs in that bucket. I don't think that's a phrase, but I'm gonna put my frogs in the bucket. Put your frogs. I'm gonna put my frogs in that bucket. And if I turn out to be right, that'll be great. Yes. Yeah, I think I mean, we, you know, our little group chat has has theories about who it could be. 00;50;01;15 - 00;50;20;14 Unknown And some people are like us, probably just like some random crew member, you know, production or whatever. Some people are like, what if it's Ed Campbell? Have you noticed that Ed Gamble has started calling it fanfic and off in his Off Menu podcast? Like, he doesn't call it fiction anymore. He calls it fanfic. Like only people that are like really deep into fanfic culture. 00;50;20;15 - 00;50;26;21 Unknown And I'm just like, I'm like, if Ed Gamble is the one, I'm like, looking at this, I'm going to lose my mind. 00;50;26;21 - 00;50;29;11 Unknown That would be insane. But I would respect it. 00;50;29;11 - 00;50;54;19 Unknown I mean, he definitely is aware of it like he's brought up. Oh, certainly. I mean, I, I haven't listened to many podcasts. I've listened to all of the Taskmaster one, the official one, all of the horn section one multiple times, and then I'm slowly working my way through off menu, and I think I have like just over 100 left to go through, which is pretty good because there's like over 200 episodes. 00;50;54;21 - 00;51;18;05 Unknown Yeah, but I am listening to them, like not in order. And so occasionally he'll be like, oh, it's out now, 2023. And I was like, no. We are past that, I fear. Yeah. But he definitely does bring it up. In in a few episodes that I've heard of, at least so far because he's like, oh, there's like fanfic of me and James and I'm like, yes, I've heard about that. 00;51;18;07 - 00;51;56;09 Unknown Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, you're at this point, I'm not gonna be surprised by anything anymore. Not really. No. Oh, goodness. All right. So we're we're gonna kind of wrap up our episode here. In a minute. So what I want to ask you is if you have any particular, like, favorite fan work recommendations from the Taskmaster fandom, like, do you have a favorite fan video or fanfic or work of art or anything that you just you want to, like, give a little shout out to? 00;51;56;11 - 00;52;25;14 Unknown And if you don't, that's fine. That is a great question. The answer is yes. The other answer is, as a person who's like and a dual position is academic and fan, I feel like ethically ambiguous about like plugging something, but I will say fics written before Alex brought it up on Taskmaster. Have a very special place in my heart because there's sort of like a weird, I don't want to say like untainted because that sounds like really whatever, but like, there's like a certain a certain naivete perhaps. 00;52;25;16 - 00;52;54;01 Unknown Yeah. And then that I think is very fun to, to look at in a historical sense. So I'll, I'll plug the genre. Yeah. Awesome. Yes. It's almost a like I was writing Test Master fanfic before it was in like an insert the state sanctioned, I don't know, like before it was brought up by Alex because I was definitely a a post author, a post watershed. 00;52;54;02 - 00;53;19;13 Unknown Yeah. Or whatever you want to call it. Of that. I definitely wasn't not writing Taskmaster fanfic before it was cool. Which is fine, because I'm still having fun. That's what it's all about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So on our website, once this episode comes out, I'll be sure to link, your article to to this episode. 00;53;19;13 - 00;53;42;04 Unknown I'm not really sure how the website works just yet. I have multiple people working on it with me, but we'll make sure to like your article. Other than that, is there anything else you want me to plug on your end? Anything exciting going on? I you can follow me on blue Sky. I have never properly used the platform, God knows if I ever will, but in theory, you can find out things I'm doing there. 00;53;42;06 - 00;54;03;19 Unknown You can if you are. It's your username on blue Sky. Oh, Christ. That's an excellent question. I think it's just Lauren Bulsara. Whatever. The sort of string of letters is after that. Let's see Lauren Belson up. Let's get it social. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Other than that, if people want to check out my website, they can. 00;54;03;19 - 00;54;23;11 Unknown It's just Belzer, lauren.com. It's very geared toward academia, so may not be of interest, but if you ever want to read anything else I write, it probably won't be about Taskmaster, but it might be about fandom. So yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on. The podcast is, really, really nice to talk to you. Thank you. 00;54;23;14 - 00;54;38;02 Unknown Likewise. I'm very happy this podcast is coming into existence. I think it's going to fill well in the fandom space. So thank you so much. All right. Take care. All right. Thank you. Bye bye. 00;54;38;15 - 00;55;08;18 Unknown And that was T.K. speaking with Lauren Balls. Or you can find her article, as well as the fic discussed on this episode on our website, taskmaster.uk. You can also follow Lauren at Lauren Balzer at Blue Sky Dot social, or visit her site at Baller lauren.com. If you have any questions, fan work recommendations, suggestions or anything else, you can email us at fans at TF taskmaster.uk.